effet de remplacement ou pas?

bonjours,
Je vous propose un problème ou plusieurs effets interviennent:
En jeu il y a une transcendance. On jour une fausse guérison puis un nectar sacré.
Alors là que se passe-t-il?

deja , ce ne sont que des capacités declenchees . il n'y a pas d'effet de remplacement.
(il n'y a que la capacité disant qu'on ne perd pas en ayant 0 pv ou moins qui est une capa statique.)

le resultat depend de qui a joué la fausse guerison , qui controle la transcendance et ds le tour de qui on est.

le joueur controlant transcendance joue un sort pour gagner 4 pv. son adversaire repond en jouant la fausse guerison: la fausse guerison se resout.
puis le sort de gain de pv se resout.
le joueur gagne 4 pv du nectar, puis la capacité declenchee retardee créée par fausse guerison se declenche et va sur la pile.
à sa resolution, le joueur va perdre 8 pv. cela va declencher la capacité declencher de la transcendance.
le joueur va, à sa resolution, gagner 16 pv.
et ainsi de suite, juqu'à ce qu'à un moment, il gagnera assez de pv pour depasser 20 pv.
à ce moment là, la capacité de la transcendance (qui fait perdre si on a plus de 20 pv) et celle de la fausse guerison (car il a gagné des pv) vont aller sur la pile:

quand deux capacités declennhees doivent aller en pile, le joueur actif met d'abord celles qu'il controle ds l'ordre de son choix, puis le joueur non actif met celles qu'il controle ds l'odre de son choix.

si on est ds le tour du joueur controlant la transcendance, on mettra d'abord en pile la capa qui fait perdre à sa resolution, puis la capa qui fait perdre des pv.
donc, on resout d'abord la capa qui fait perdre des pv. ce qui declenche la capa de transcendance (qui fait gagner des pv) qui va aller sur la pile. a sa resolution, on gagne des pv, ce qui declenche la capa de fausse guerison,etc... on a alors une boucle infinie: => match nul. (la capacité faisant perdre la partie ne se resoudra jamais)

si on est ds le tour de l'autre joueur (ce qui n'est pas le cas ds ton exemple, vu que le nectar est un rituel) , la mise en pile sera faite ds l'ordre sens, donc le controleur de la transcenddance perdra la partie.

si c'est le meme joueur qui controle la transcendance et la fausse guerison, c'est lui qui choisira l'ordre de mise des capacités en pile: et donc generalement preferera faire match nul plutot que de perdre.

NB: la capacité declenchee : "quand vous avez 20 points de vie ou plus, ...." est une capacité déclenchee par un état du jeu. si une telle capacité se declenche et va en pile, elle ne pourra pas se redeclencher tant que celle dejà en pile n'a pas quitté la pile. (c'est pour ca qu'il y a match nul plus haut: elle ne peut plus se redeclencher)

_________________
M'enfin !?

Règles du forum stratégie et liens utiles (règles,articles,oracle,..)!

[ Edité par lyon4 le 16 jan 2006 à 21h43 ]

eh bé, c'est bin compliqué mais merci d'avoir pris le temps de bien expliqué
Je tient à préciser que le problème m'est apparu en lisant l'article d'arcarum:
http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-bazar-viewarticle-1-102.html
Il y a donc une erreur mais comme même il parle d'effet dépendant ou indépendant ce qui veut dire
Cette partie est pas claire sur les effets dépendants-indépendants mais me semble tout de même importante donc pourrais-tu, lyon4, expliquer cette histoire de dépendance?

Je confirme ce qu'a dit lyon4. Arcarum s'est bel est bien trompé car ni Transcendence ni False Cure ne donne lieu à des effets de remplacement. (Peut-être que c'était le cas au 18/09/2003, quand il a écrit l'article, mais pas à l'heure actuelle.)

Quant aux règles sur les effets interdépendants, il s'agit d'un point particulièrement délicat régi par la règle 418.5 qui n'est pas à jour sur ce site.

Voilà la version Anglaise (et comme il est 3h du mat, je n'ai pas le courage de te la traduire, si tu veux que je te le fasse, envoie moi un MP et je te fais ça).

418.5. Interaction of Continuous Effects

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).
Example: Crusade is an enchantment that reads “White creatures get +1/+1.” Crusade and a 2/2 black creature are in play. If an effect then turns the creature white, it gets +1/+1 from Crusade, becoming 3/3. If the creature’s color is later changed to red, Crusade’s effect stops applying to it, and it will return to being a 2/2.
Example: Gray Ogre, a 2/2 creature, is in play. An effect puts a +1/+1 counter on it, making it 3/3. An effect that says “Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn” is applied to it, making it 7/7. An enchantment that says “Creatures you control get +0/+2” enters play, making it a 7/9. An effect that says “Target creature becomes 0/1 until end of turn” is applied to it, making it a 1/4 (0/1, plus +1/+1 from the counter, plus +0/+2 from the enchantment).
Example: Svogthos, the Restless Tomb, is in play. An effect that says “Until end of turn, target land becomes a 3/3 creature that’s still a land” is applied to it. An effect that says “Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn” is applied to it, making it a 4/4 land creature. Then you activate Svogthos’s ability (“Until end of turn, Svogthos, the Restless Tomb becomes a black and green Plant Zombie creature with ‘This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.’ It’s still a land.”) while you have ten creature cards in your graveyard. It becomes a 10/10 land creature. If a creature card enters or leaves your graveyard, Svogthos’s power and toughness will be modified accordingly. If the first effect is applied to it again, it will become a 3/3 land creature again.

418.5b If an effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If an effect starts to apply in one layer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
Example: An effect that reads “Wild Mongrel gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of your choice until end of turn” is both a power- and toughness-changing effect and an “other” kind of effect. The “becomes the color of your choice” part is applied in layer 5, and then the “gets +1/+1” part is applied in layer 6.
Example: Grab the Reins has an effect that reads “Until end of turn, you gain control of target creature and it gains haste.” This is both a control-changing effect and an “other” effect. The “you gain control” part is applied in layer 2, and then the “it gains haste” part is applied in layer 5.
Example: An effect that reads “All noncreature artifacts become 2/2 artifact creatures until end of turn” is both a type-changing effect and a power- and toughness-setting effect. The type-changing effect is applied to all noncreature artifacts in layer 4 and the power- and toughness-setting effect is applied to those same permanents in layer 6, even though those permanents aren’t noncreature artifacts by then.

418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

418.5d An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied, even if this causes a characteristic-setting ability to apply after another effect. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in “timestamp order” relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

418.5e An object’s timestamp is the time it entered the zone it’s currently in, with three exceptions: (a) If two or more objects enter a zone (or zones) simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at the time they enter that zone. (b) Whenever an Aura or Equipment becomes attached to a permanent, the Aura or Equipment receives a new timestamp. (c) Permanents that phase in keep the same timestamps they had when they phased out.

418.5f A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.

418.5g A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.

418.5h One continuous effect can override another. Sometimes the results of one effect determine whether another effect applies or what another effect does.
Example: Two Auras are played on the same creature: “Enchanted creature gains flying” and “Enchanted creature loses flying.” Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they’re doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last “wins.” It’s irrelevant whether an effect is temporary (such as “Target creature loses flying until end of turn”) or global (such as “All creatures lose flying”).
Example: One effect reads, “White creatures get +1/+1,” and another, “Enchanted creature is white.” The enchanted creature gets +1/+1 from the first effect, regardless of its previous color.

418.5i Some effects switch a creature’s power and toughness. When they’re applied, they take the value of power and apply it to the object’s toughness, and take the object’s toughness and apply it to the object’s power. These effects are applied after all other effects that affect power and toughness. (See rule 418.5a.)
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes a 3/1.

la mise à jour a été faite sur le site :
http://www.magiccorporation.com/mc.php?rub=bazar&file=regles/index&id=418

merci sacharcarum